Discussion:
Finest resolution of Lcnc
(too old to reply)
Marius Liebenberg
2017-07-04 11:10:05 UTC
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Hi All
I have been asked to put a very accurate and delicate lathe together. I
have to reach a repeatable resolution of sub micron values. I have found
slides and screws that will allow me to do that.
The question I have is - will I be able to control the lathe to say 0.1
micro meter with Lcnc using the Gmoccapy front end.



-----------------------------
Regards / Groete

Marius D. Liebenberg
+27 82 698 3251
+27 12 743 6064


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andy pugh
2017-07-04 11:59:32 UTC
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Post by Marius Liebenberg
The question I have is - will I be able to control the lathe to say 0.1
micro meter with Lcnc using the Gmoccapy front end.
You could easily configure the machine to use microns as the base unit
(then G20 would work in thousandths of an inch).
--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
Marius Liebenberg
2017-07-04 15:15:16 UTC
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The DRO's will have to be modified a bit I suppose. In order to show the
larger travels. The max travel is about 300mm.

------ Original Message ------
From: "andy pugh" <***@gmail.com>
To: "Marius Liebenberg" <***@mastercut.co.za>; "EMC developers"
<emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: 2017-07-04 13:59:32
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Finest resolution of Lcnc
Post by andy pugh
Post by Marius Liebenberg
The question I have is - will I be able to control the lathe to say
0.1
micro meter with Lcnc using the Gmoccapy front end.
You could easily configure the machine to use microns as the base unit
(then G20 would work in thousandths of an inch).
--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
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andy pugh
2017-07-04 15:27:09 UTC
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Post by Marius Liebenberg
The DRO's will have to be modified a bit I suppose. In order to show the
larger travels. The max travel is about 300mm.
<#m_638439589416681422_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
In the Master branch we have DRO_FORMAT_MM and DRO_FORMAT_IN to allow you
to change that.
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/config/ini-config.html#_display_section

The photos with the micrometers here show that LinuxCNC is capable.
https://goo.gl/photos/zQKfTouH7Jbx9N3P6
(This is a Hardinge lathe (not mine) with linear scales on the axes used as
part of the position loop)
--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
Eric Keller
2017-07-04 15:29:57 UTC
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I work with a machine that displays out to an angstrom iirc. It uses mm as
the main units. That's a lot of digits. I don't think I would want to work
in microns. I know people are trying to hold dimensions on the order of a
nanometer with similar machines. Our machine isn't tuned quite that well,
and you need a temperature controlled environment
Post by Marius Liebenberg
The DRO's will have to be modified a bit I suppose. In order to show the
larger travels. The max travel is about 300mm.
------ Original Message ------
Sent: 2017-07-04 13:59:32
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Finest resolution of Lcnc
Post by Marius Liebenberg
The question I have is - will I be able to control the lathe to say 0.1
Post by Marius Liebenberg
micro meter with Lcnc using the Gmoccapy front end.
You could easily configure the machine to use microns as the base unit
(then G20 would work in thousandths of an inch).
--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
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Eric Keller
2017-07-04 15:31:56 UTC
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Sorry, forgot to mention it's not using LCNC.
Post by Eric Keller
I work with a machine that displays out to an angstrom iirc. It uses mm as
the main units. That's a lot of digits. I don't think I would want to work
in microns. I know people are trying to hold dimensions on the order of a
nanometer with similar machines. Our machine isn't tuned quite that well,
and you need a temperature controlled environment
Post by Marius Liebenberg
The DRO's will have to be modified a bit I suppose. In order to show the
larger travels. The max travel is about 300mm.
------ Original Message ------
Sent: 2017-07-04 13:59:32
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Finest resolution of Lcnc
Post by Marius Liebenberg
The question I have is - will I be able to control the lathe to say 0.1
Post by Marius Liebenberg
micro meter with Lcnc using the Gmoccapy front end.
You could easily configure the machine to use microns as the base unit
(then G20 would work in thousandths of an inch).
--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
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Niemand Sonst
2017-07-04 16:01:54 UTC
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Gmoccapy is not the issue, as you can add more digits to the DRO on the
settings page. But if you speak about 0.1 µm it is useless to build a
lathe on that accuracy, as you will never be able to turn a part at that
accuracy. Just a few degrees temperature difference will destroy the
repeatability.

Just calculate 1 Degree is 1 µm length difference on every 100 mm.

Norbert
Post by Marius Liebenberg
The DRO's will have to be modified a bit I suppose. In order to show
the larger travels. The max travel is about 300mm.
------ Original Message ------
Sent: 2017-07-04 13:59:32
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Finest resolution of Lcnc
Post by andy pugh
Post by Marius Liebenberg
The question I have is - will I be able to control the lathe to say
0.1
micro meter with Lcnc using the Gmoccapy front end.
You could easily configure the machine to use microns as the base unit
(then G20 would work in thousandths of an inch).
--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
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Bertho Stultiens
2017-07-04 16:04:14 UTC
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Post by Niemand Sonst
Gmoccapy is not the issue, as you can add more digits to the DRO on the
settings page. But if you speak about 0.1 µm it is useless to build a
lathe on that accuracy, as you will never be able to turn a part at that
accuracy. Just a few degrees temperature difference will destroy the
repeatability.
Just calculate 1 Degree is 1 µm length difference on every 100 mm.
And yet we have a lathe that can do contact-lens cutting at optical
accuracy (<= 10 nm, without a need for subsequent surface polishing).

It can be done, but it is a lot of control work and quite expensive.
--
Greetings Bertho

(disclaimers are disclaimed)
Eric Keller
2017-07-04 16:54:45 UTC
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But if you speak about 0.1 µm it is useless to build a lathe on that
accuracy, as you will never be able to turn a part at that accuracy. Just a
few degrees temperature difference will destroy the repeatability.
The people that work on optics would be really surprised to hear this, also
diamond turning work is done at much finer levels than 100 nM. Sure,
thermal growth is an issue. People really want to do work down in the 1nM
range because that's what their requirements are.
Jon Elson
2017-07-04 17:10:40 UTC
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Post by Eric Keller
But if you speak about 0.1 µm it is useless to build a lathe on that
accuracy, as you will never be able to turn a part at that accuracy. Just a
few degrees temperature difference will destroy the repeatability.
The people that work on optics would be really surprised to hear this, also
diamond turning work is done at much finer levels than 100 nM. Sure,
thermal growth is an issue. People really want to do work down in the 1nM
range because that's what their requirements are.
These machines work under a cascade of temperature
stabilizing fluid held to something like +/-.01 C
to prevent any temperature fluctuations. The machines
themselves have a bunch of features to improve
stability.

Jon
Jon Elson
2017-07-05 22:30:50 UTC
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Well, Chris Radek the bus driver has been dethroned!

They guy who brought by the HP computer with the BIOS
incompatibility with PCIe par port cards came by to pick it
up after I came up with a solution (use a PCI card, instead).

He has a 40 foot Challenger bus from 1968 or so, powered by
an 8V71 Diesel. The previous owner fitted it out as an RV,
but it has a full kitchen with 4-burner gas stove, full-size
microwave, etc, couch, breakfast table, at least a
queen-size bed, etc. Air suspension, really nice!
Downside, 6.9 MPG! ARRGH! I drive a hybrid, so that sounds
pretty bad.
But, it is COOL!

Jon
andy pugh
2017-07-05 22:45:49 UTC
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He has a 40 foot Challenger bus from 1968 or so, powered by an 8V71 Diesel.
Double decker?
--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
Jon Elson
2017-07-05 23:29:04 UTC
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Post by andy pugh
He has a 40 foot Challenger bus from 1968 or so, powered by an 8V71 Diesel.
Double decker?
No, just single. But, it is still QUITE the machine!
Pretty amazing the thing is still in good condition, since
it is 49 years old. He figures it has about 3 million miles
on it, as it was used by a bus service between 2 cities.
Most of the bus is stainless steel!

Jon
andy pugh
2017-07-05 23:37:27 UTC
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Post by Jon Elson
No, just single. But, it is still QUITE the machine!

--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
Jon Elson
2017-07-06 16:32:25 UTC
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OK, I PROMISE this will be the last post on this off-topic
subject!

Here are pics of Dave's Challenger bus :
Loading Image...
Loading Image...

And, for a completely different mode of transport, here's a
pic of my friend Fritz driving around my back yard in his
14' hovercraft last week. (Guy in back seat is my youngest
son.)

Loading Image...

Fritz has bought a Pacific island 1000 miles from Hawaii,
and has never seen it, except for Google Earth views. Since
the UM top level domain has been decommissioned due to lack
of use, he has plans to set up a solar-powered satellite
node out there and be the only person in the world with his
own, personal, top level domain. (UM is USA minor outlying
islands.) If this ever actually happens, I may be on the
hook for building the ground station. Likely would be a
Beagle Bone in the mix. But, it would have to be secured
against lightning, salt spray, storm surge, hurricane winds,
etc.
No small feat.

There is about a mile of tidal flats between navigable water
and the actual island, hence the hovercraft.

OK, I admit it, I seem to ATTRACT people with really strange
gadgets. Maybe because I have some really strange ones in
my basement, too.

Jon
Nicklas Karlsson
2017-07-06 16:49:31 UTC
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Post by Jon Elson
OK, I PROMISE this will be the last post on this off-topic
subject!
That's certainly a different bus, a people bus with serial numbered rows.
Chris Radek
2017-07-06 00:07:52 UTC
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Post by Jon Elson
No, just single. But, it is still QUITE the machine!
Pretty amazing the thing is still in good condition, since
it is 49 years old. He figures it has about 3 million miles
on it, as it was used by a bus service between 2 cities.
Most of the bus is stainless steel!
[This is SO off topic but...] I've recently fixed mine up after it
sat for a few years, and it's been getting a workout this summer.
It gets right around 10 mpg at 55 mph. It's bad mileage for a car,
but good mileage for an apartment.

We headed out to camp overnight Friday, and ended up driving around
the state for 3 days over the long weekend. We didn't take enough
clothes so we stopped and bought socks at Target and shirts at
Goodwill. Planning ahead is for ... people who aren't me I guess.
theman whosoldtheworld
2017-07-06 07:13:11 UTC
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But these new bus how many Mb sent in 1ms?? ...... ouchhh ... is a double
decker home!!! .... In this case, the acceleration is 0 to 100Km/h? And
this before or after having cooked four scrambled eggs? ....But did you
really realize this? You're just a crazy roker...
bkt
Post by Chris Radek
Post by Jon Elson
No, just single. But, it is still QUITE the machine!
Pretty amazing the thing is still in good condition, since
it is 49 years old. He figures it has about 3 million miles
on it, as it was used by a bus service between 2 cities.
Most of the bus is stainless steel!
[This is SO off topic but...] I've recently fixed mine up after it
sat for a few years, and it's been getting a workout this summer.
It gets right around 10 mpg at 55 mph. It's bad mileage for a car,
but good mileage for an apartment.
We headed out to camp overnight Friday, and ended up driving around
the state for 3 days over the long weekend. We didn't take enough
clothes so we stopped and bought socks at Target and shirts at
Goodwill. Planning ahead is for ... people who aren't me I guess.
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Dave Cole
2017-07-06 13:56:26 UTC
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10 mpg is great for a bus!
Chris what do you have powering your bus?
I know some of the old ones had 6-71's and the hotrods had 8-71's.
Is it an old Greyhound? Or ?

Dave
Post by Chris Radek
Post by Jon Elson
No, just single. But, it is still QUITE the machine!
Pretty amazing the thing is still in good condition, since
it is 49 years old. He figures it has about 3 million miles
on it, as it was used by a bus service between 2 cities.
Most of the bus is stainless steel!
[This is SO off topic but...] I've recently fixed mine up after it
sat for a few years, and it's been getting a workout this summer.
It gets right around 10 mpg at 55 mph. It's bad mileage for a car,
but good mileage for an apartment.
We headed out to camp overnight Friday, and ended up driving around
the state for 3 days over the long weekend. We didn't take enough
clothes so we stopped and bought socks at Target and shirts at
Goodwill. Planning ahead is for ... people who aren't me I guess.
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Jon Elson
2017-07-06 16:09:22 UTC
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Post by Dave Cole
10 mpg is great for a bus!
Chris what do you have powering your bus?
I know some of the old ones had 6-71's and the hotrods had
8-71's.
Is it an old Greyhound? Or ?
No, Chris' is a yellow Blue Bird (I think) school bus, that
was originally set up as a portable classroom. So, it had a
generator and air conditioning. It sounded like it had a
standard Diesel engine, not a Detroit Diesel, and likely
straight 6.

Some of the really fancy giant RVs have 8V92 engines.
Wouldn't want to pay the fuel bill on those!

Jon
Chris Radek
2017-07-06 16:26:37 UTC
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Post by Dave Cole
10 mpg is great for a bus!
Chris what do you have powering your bus?
It's a 93 Blue Bird, it has the Cummins 6BTA and much-feared
Allison AT545.
t***@bgp.nu
2017-07-06 14:33:35 UTC
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I have done several vacations (local and overseas) with little pre-planning. Yes, you set yourself up for a challenge, and if you have the wrong attitude extreme frustration, but I find it more fun to “wing it”. More times than not it has worked out in our favor, staying at places that were fully booked before leaving, and seeing cool things we never would have planned for. A couple times we didn’t get to do things we wanted, but ces't la vie.. Makes for great stories, and if you just let the bad roll off your shoulders and have fun it is a great way to go. Love the idea of a rolling bus-rv. Good on ya!
-Tom
Post by Chris Radek
[This is SO off topic but...] I've recently fixed mine up after it
sat for a few years, and it's been getting a workout this summer.
It gets right around 10 mpg at 55 mph. It's bad mileage for a car,
but good mileage for an apartment.
We headed out to camp overnight Friday, and ended up driving around
the state for 3 days over the long weekend. We didn't take enough
clothes so we stopped and bought socks at Target and shirts at
Goodwill. Planning ahead is for ... people who aren't me I guess.
Niemand Sonst
2017-07-04 17:28:44 UTC
Permalink
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I am surprised about this. I am working as a meteorology application
engineer about 20 Years now, mostly in metal working industry.

It might be possible to guide a machine with accuracy of 1 µm, but how
will you check that accuracy.
You may take a laser interferometer and you will get a result, but is
that one correct? And that is only one dimension!

But accuracy and repeatability mus be holded under all working
circumstances to get process reliability. That would require temperature
controlled room, machine and cooling. At my company we do calibrate
about 3500 measurement tools every day approved according German rools
(DAkkS).

We are not allowed to switch of the light, not even between Christmas
and NewYear, as that would result in accuracy loss of our flatness normals.
So IMHO I do have a little knowledge about accuracy.

I think we are talking about different stuff, positioning a machine at
that accuracy might well be possible, but holding an accuracy with a cg
and cgk Factor of 1.33 for the hole operating area of the machine and
hole the year is another part of the work.

In optics work, the dimension is less important than the contour of the
peace, In that industry I sell WhiteLight microscops to control form of
lens and roughness. But that is another problem.

Regards Norbert
Post by Eric Keller
But if you speak about 0.1 µm it is useless to build a lathe on that
accuracy, as you will never be able to turn a part at that accuracy. Just a
few degrees temperature difference will destroy the repeatability.
The people that work on optics would be really surprised to hear this, also
diamond turning work is done at much finer levels than 100 nM. Sure,
thermal growth is an issue. People really want to do work down in the 1nM
range because that's what their requirements are.
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Eric Keller
2017-07-05 11:54:06 UTC
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Post by Niemand Sonst
I am surprised about this. I am working as a meteorology application
engineer about 20 Years now, mostly in metal working industry.
Niemand,
I'm a part-time metrologist working in precision machining. I work in
spindle metrology. I don't pretend to be an expert, but I do work with
people who are experts. Thermal growth is definitely an issue, we get a
lot of requests for consulting where that's the problem. Even a spindle
will heat itself. There are all sorts of tricks, keeping the machine
running is one of them. The first part of the solution is to know there
will be a problem, the second is measuring it. Your point is well taken,
it's easy to fool yourself.
Regards,
Eric
Marius Liebenberg
2017-07-04 17:02:36 UTC
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Correct the machine will run between 21 and 23 degrees Celsius always.

------ Original Message ------
From: "Eric Keller" <***@psu.edu>
To: "Marius Liebenberg" <***@mastercut.co.za>; "EMC developers"
<emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: 2017-07-04 17:29:57
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Finest resolution of Lcnc
Post by Eric Keller
I work with a machine that displays out to an angstrom iirc. It uses mm
as the main units. That's a lot of digits. I don't think I would want
to work in microns. I know people are trying to hold dimensions on the
order of a nanometer with similar machines. Our machine isn't tuned
quite that well, and you need a temperature controlled environment
On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 11:15 AM, Marius Liebenberg
Post by Marius Liebenberg
The DRO's will have to be modified a bit I suppose. In order to show
the larger travels. The max travel is about 300mm.
------ Original Message ------
Sent: 2017-07-04 13:59:32
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Finest resolution of Lcnc
Post by andy pugh
Post by Marius Liebenberg
The question I have is - will I be able to control the lathe to say
0.1
micro meter with Lcnc using the Gmoccapy front end.
You could easily configure the machine to use microns as the base
unit
(then G20 would work in thousandths of an inch).
--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
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Niemand Sonst
2017-07-04 17:30:16 UTC
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Please take in count that the most important European Norm DIN EN ISO 1
requieres a reference temperatur of 20 °C

Norbert
Post by Marius Liebenberg
Correct the machine will run between 21 and 23 degrees Celsius always.
------ Original Message ------
Sent: 2017-07-04 17:29:57
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Finest resolution of Lcnc
Post by Eric Keller
I work with a machine that displays out to an angstrom iirc. It uses
mm as the main units. That's a lot of digits. I don't think I would
want to work in microns. I know people are trying to hold dimensions
on the order of a nanometer with similar machines. Our machine isn't
tuned quite that well, and you need a temperature controlled environment
On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 11:15 AM, Marius Liebenberg
Post by Marius Liebenberg
The DRO's will have to be modified a bit I suppose. In order to show
the larger travels. The max travel is about 300mm.
------ Original Message ------
Sent: 2017-07-04 13:59:32
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Finest resolution of Lcnc
Post by andy pugh
Post by Marius Liebenberg
The question I have is - will I be able to control the lathe to
say 0.1
micro meter with Lcnc using the Gmoccapy front end.
You could easily configure the machine to use microns as the base unit
(then G20 would work in thousandths of an inch).
--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
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Marius Liebenberg
2017-07-04 17:05:21 UTC
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There are lathes that do that already. The lathe is temperature
controlled and the slides run on air bearings with a tolerance of better
than 2 or 3 nano meters. The job is given in 10 micron steps and I have
to work the gcode from there

------ Original Message ------
From: "Niemand Sonst" <***@web.de>
To: emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: 2017-07-04 18:01:54
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Finest resolution of Lcnc
Post by Niemand Sonst
Gmoccapy is not the issue, as you can add more digits to the DRO on the
settings page. But if you speak about 0.1 µm it is useless to build a
lathe on that accuracy, as you will never be able to turn a part at
that accuracy. Just a few degrees temperature difference will destroy
the repeatability.
Just calculate 1 Degree is 1 µm length difference on every 100 mm.
Norbert
Post by Marius Liebenberg
The DRO's will have to be modified a bit I suppose. In order to show
the larger travels. The max travel is about 300mm.
------ Original Message ------
Sent: 2017-07-04 13:59:32
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Finest resolution of Lcnc
Post by andy pugh
Post by Marius Liebenberg
The question I have is - will I be able to control the lathe to say
0.1
micro meter with Lcnc using the Gmoccapy front end.
You could easily configure the machine to use microns as the base
unit
(then G20 would work in thousandths of an inch).
-- atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
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EBo
2017-07-04 18:39:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
I had studied the design specs for a lathe which was certified
<0.000002" which used oil bearings instead of air, but from what I have
seen 1um is reasonably doable by mere mortals
however back in the 90's
there were only a handful of people that could build, tune, and run a
machine that would do 20x the precision. And yes, you have to
temperature and hudity control the work (unless the structural members
of the machine are made from something like Sitall or Zerodur...
Post by Marius Liebenberg
There are lathes that do that already. The lathe is temperature
controlled and the slides run on air bearings with a tolerance of
better than 2 or 3 nano meters. The job is given in 10 micron steps
and I have to work the gcode from there
------ Original Message ------
Sent: 2017-07-04 18:01:54
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Finest resolution of Lcnc
Post by Niemand Sonst
Gmoccapy is not the issue, as you can add more digits to the DRO on
the settings page. But if you speak about 0.1 µm it is useless to
build a lathe on that accuracy, as you will never be able to turn a
part at that accuracy. Just a few degrees temperature difference will
destroy the repeatability.
Just calculate 1 Degree is 1 µm length difference on every 100 mm.
Norbert
Post by Marius Liebenberg
The DRO's will have to be modified a bit I suppose. In order to show
the larger travels. The max travel is about 300mm.
------ Original Message ------
Sent: 2017-07-04 13:59:32
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Finest resolution of Lcnc
Post by andy pugh
Post by Marius Liebenberg
The question I have is - will I be able to control the lathe to
say 0.1
micro meter with Lcnc using the Gmoccapy front end.
You could easily configure the machine to use microns as the base
unit
(then G20 would work in thousandths of an inch).
-- atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
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theman whosoldtheworld
2017-07-05 07:23:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
For my little experience as insert for late and mill seller, some late for
bearing work with cheramic + diamond insert and air flow as lubrificant
.... these means more or less 20° araund tool, araund bearing in working
order, plus in most cases machines equipped with oil coolers circulating
around the spindle and slides ... so most of the lathe concerned is kept at
a constant temperature ... so the hight precision is possible ... the most
problem regards the real measure ... if is right the working bearing is
kostant in measure, it is not so sure that the measure obtained is the
desired one ... in fact, it is very difficult to measure the spherical
bearing head ... beyond the only transfer from the working area to the
measuring chamber changes the measurement itself.
So you do not have to be amazed at the data you bring ... above all you
have to remember that data is collected in the field and not in the
measurement laboratories.

regards
bkt
I had studied the design specs for a lathe which was certified <0.000002"
which used oil bearings instead of air, but from what I have seen 1um is
reasonably doable by mere mortals <https://www.youtube.com/watch
?v=sFrVdoOhu1Q>, however back in the 90's there were only a handful of
people that could build, tune, and run a machine that would do 20x the
precision. And yes, you have to temperature and hudity control the work
(unless the structural members of the machine are made from something like
Sitall or Zerodur...
Post by Marius Liebenberg
There are lathes that do that already. The lathe is temperature
controlled and the slides run on air bearings with a tolerance of
better than 2 or 3 nano meters. The job is given in 10 micron steps
and I have to work the gcode from there
------ Original Message ------
Sent: 2017-07-04 18:01:54
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Finest resolution of Lcnc
Gmoccapy is not the issue, as you can add more digits to the DRO on the
settings page. But if you speak about 0.1 µm it is useless to build a lathe
on that accuracy, as you will never be able to turn a part at that
accuracy. Just a few degrees temperature difference will destroy the
repeatability.
Just calculate 1 Degree is 1 µm length difference on every 100 mm.
Norbert
Post by Marius Liebenberg
The DRO's will have to be modified a bit I suppose. In order to show
the larger travels. The max travel is about 300mm.
------ Original Message ------
Sent: 2017-07-04 13:59:32
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Finest resolution of Lcnc
Post by Marius Liebenberg
The question I have is - will I be able to control the lathe to say
Post by Marius Liebenberg
0.1
micro meter with Lcnc using the Gmoccapy front end.
You could easily configure the machine to use microns as the base unit
(then G20 would work in thousandths of an inch).
-- atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
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EBo
2017-07-05 12:58:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Thank you BKT for your comments. I had meant in my reply that it is in
fact possible to build a conventional configured lathe which actually
can routinely do the precision required for their application, and
provide some idea of what you have to do to make this work in practice.
You are right that it is difficult measuring anything at that precision.
Post by theman whosoldtheworld
For my little experience as insert for late and mill seller, some late for
bearing work with cheramic + diamond insert and air flow as
lubrificant
.... these means more or less 20° araund tool, araund bearing in working
order, plus in most cases machines equipped with oil coolers
circulating
around the spindle and slides ... so most of the lathe concerned is kept at
a constant temperature ... so the hight precision is possible ... the most
problem regards the real measure ... if is right the working bearing is
kostant in measure, it is not so sure that the measure obtained is the
desired one ... in fact, it is very difficult to measure the
spherical
bearing head ... beyond the only transfer from the working area to the
measuring chamber changes the measurement itself.
So you do not have to be amazed at the data you bring ... above all you
have to remember that data is collected in the field and not in the
measurement laboratories.
regards
bkt
I had studied the design specs for a lathe which was certified <0.000002"
which used oil bearings instead of air, but from what I have seen 1um is
reasonably doable by mere mortals <https://www.youtube.com/watch
?v=sFrVdoOhu1Q>, however back in the 90's there were only a handful of
people that could build, tune, and run a machine that would do 20x the
precision. And yes, you have to temperature and hudity control the work
(unless the structural members of the machine are made from
something like
Sitall or Zerodur...
Post by Marius Liebenberg
There are lathes that do that already. The lathe is temperature
controlled and the slides run on air bearings with a tolerance of
better than 2 or 3 nano meters. The job is given in 10 micron steps
and I have to work the gcode from there
------ Original Message ------
Sent: 2017-07-04 18:01:54
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Finest resolution of Lcnc
Gmoccapy is not the issue, as you can add more digits to the DRO on the
settings page. But if you speak about 0.1 µm it is useless to build a lathe
on that accuracy, as you will never be able to turn a part at that
accuracy. Just a few degrees temperature difference will destroy the
repeatability.
Just calculate 1 Degree is 1 µm length difference on every 100 mm.
Norbert
Post by Marius Liebenberg
The DRO's will have to be modified a bit I suppose. In order to show
the larger travels. The max travel is about 300mm.
------ Original Message ------
developers" <
Sent: 2017-07-04 13:59:32
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Finest resolution of Lcnc
On 4 July 2017 at 12:10, Marius Liebenberg
Post by Marius Liebenberg
The question I have is - will I be able to control the lathe to say
Post by Marius Liebenberg
0.1
micro meter with Lcnc using the Gmoccapy front end.
You could easily configure the machine to use microns as the base unit
(then G20 would work in thousandths of an inch).
-- atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
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theman whosoldtheworld
2017-07-05 14:59:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
there are not so many way to build thrust bearings ... one of these is with
that type of lathe. Above all, I hope you enjoy doing these things.

Good work.
bkt
Post by EBo
Thank you BKT for your comments. I had meant in my reply that it is in
fact possible to build a conventional configured lathe which actually can
routinely do the precision required for their application, and provide some
idea of what you have to do to make this work in practice. You are right
that it is difficult measuring anything at that precision.
Post by theman whosoldtheworld
For my little experience as insert for late and mill seller, some late for
bearing work with cheramic + diamond insert and air flow as lubrificant
.... these means more or less 20° araund tool, araund bearing in working
order, plus in most cases machines equipped with oil coolers circulating
around the spindle and slides ... so most of the lathe concerned is kept at
a constant temperature ... so the hight precision is possible ... the most
problem regards the real measure ... if is right the working bearing is
kostant in measure, it is not so sure that the measure obtained is the
desired one ... in fact, it is very difficult to measure the spherical
bearing head ... beyond the only transfer from the working area to the
measuring chamber changes the measurement itself.
So you do not have to be amazed at the data you bring ... above all you
have to remember that data is collected in the field and not in the
measurement laboratories.
regards
bkt
I had studied the design specs for a lathe which was certified <0.000002"
which used oil bearings instead of air, but from what I have seen 1um is
reasonably doable by mere mortals <https://www.youtube.com/watch
?v=sFrVdoOhu1Q>, however back in the 90's there were only a handful of
people that could build, tune, and run a machine that would do 20x the
precision. And yes, you have to temperature and hudity control the work
(unless the structural members of the machine are made from something like
Sitall or Zerodur...
There are lathes that do that already. The lathe is temperature
Post by Marius Liebenberg
controlled and the slides run on air bearings with a tolerance of
better than 2 or 3 nano meters. The job is given in 10 micron steps
and I have to work the gcode from there
------ Original Message ------
Sent: 2017-07-04 18:01:54
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Finest resolution of Lcnc
Gmoccapy is not the issue, as you can add more digits to the DRO on the
settings page. But if you speak about 0.1 µm it is useless to build a lathe
on that accuracy, as you will never be able to turn a part at that
accuracy. Just a few degrees temperature difference will destroy the
repeatability.
Just calculate 1 Degree is 1 µm length difference on every 100 mm.
Norbert
The DRO's will have to be modified a bit I suppose. In order to show
Post by Marius Liebenberg
the larger travels. The max travel is about 300mm.
------ Original Message ------
Sent: 2017-07-04 13:59:32
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Finest resolution of Lcnc
Post by Marius Liebenberg
The question I have is - will I be able to control the lathe to say
Post by Marius Liebenberg
0.1
micro meter with Lcnc using the Gmoccapy front end.
You could easily configure the machine to use microns as the base unit
(then G20 would work in thousandths of an inch).
-- atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
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Marius Liebenberg
2017-07-04 17:06:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
It happens to be a contact lens lathe that I have to build

------ Original Message ------
From: "Bertho Stultiens" <***@vagrearg.org>
To: "EMC developers" <emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: 2017-07-04 18:04:14
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Finest resolution of Lcnc
Post by Bertho Stultiens
Post by Niemand Sonst
Gmoccapy is not the issue, as you can add more digits to the DRO on
the
settings page. But if you speak about 0.1 µm it is useless to build a
lathe on that accuracy, as you will never be able to turn a part at
that
accuracy. Just a few degrees temperature difference will destroy the
repeatability.
Just calculate 1 Degree is 1 µm length difference on every 100 mm.
And yet we have a lathe that can do contact-lens cutting at optical
accuracy (<= 10 nm, without a need for subsequent surface polishing).
It can be done, but it is a lot of control work and quite expensive.
--
Greetings Bertho
(disclaimers are disclaimed)
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Bertho Stultiens
2017-07-04 17:15:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Marius Liebenberg
It happens to be a contact lens lathe that I have to build
But, at 100nm repeatability, you will have some problems with optical
accuracy. 100nm is about quarter lambda for blue, so the result would
probably have some chromatic abberations.
--
Greetings Bertho

(disclaimers are disclaimed)
Marius Liebenberg
2017-07-04 17:31:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Have a look here
http://www.dac-intl.com/products/contact-lens-iol-equipment/new-alme-lathe/

------ Original Message ------
From: "Niemand Sonst" <***@web.de>
To: "EMC developers" <emc-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: 2017-07-04 19:28:44
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] Finest resolution of Lcnc
Post by Niemand Sonst
I am surprised about this. I am working as a meteorology application
engineer about 20 Years now, mostly in metal working industry.
It might be possible to guide a machine with accuracy of 1 µm, but how
will you check that accuracy.
You may take a laser interferometer and you will get a result, but is
that one correct? And that is only one dimension!
But accuracy and repeatability mus be holded under all working
circumstances to get process reliability. That would require
temperature controlled room, machine and cooling. At my company we do
calibrate about 3500 measurement tools every day approved according
German rools (DAkkS).
We are not allowed to switch of the light, not even between Christmas
and NewYear, as that would result in accuracy loss of our flatness
normals.
So IMHO I do have a little knowledge about accuracy.
I think we are talking about different stuff, positioning a machine at
that accuracy might well be possible, but holding an accuracy with a cg
and cgk Factor of 1.33 for the hole operating area of the machine and
hole the year is another part of the work.
In optics work, the dimension is less important than the contour of the
peace, In that industry I sell WhiteLight microscops to control form of
lens and roughness. But that is another problem.
Regards Norbert
Post by Eric Keller
But if you speak about 0.1 µm it is useless to build a lathe on that
accuracy, as you will never be able to turn a part at that accuracy.
Just a
few degrees temperature difference will destroy the repeatability.
The people that work on optics would be really surprised to hear this,
also
diamond turning work is done at much finer levels than 100 nM. Sure,
thermal growth is an issue. People really want to do work down in the
1nM
range because that's what their requirements are.
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